Episode One

What It’s Like…To Make A Living As A Creative Professional

Episode One

What It’s Like… To Make A Living As A Creative Professional

Episode One Transcript

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Elizabeth: All right, everybody Welcome to what it’s like. Today, We’re going to talk about what it’s like to make a living as a creative professional. I am your host Elizabeth.


Jessica: And I am Elizabeth’s co-host, Jessica.


Elizabeth: And today we’re going to let you guys know a little bit about what our experience has been like working as creatives and actually making a living and not being starving artists.


Jessica: We’re just uh, artists who are semi starving.


Elizabeth: Yes, exactly. But still kind of paying our bills, so still works, right?


Jessica: It’s the dream and yeah, we’re just. We’re just going to talk a little bit about that. We work as web designers and developers and speaking for Elizabeth.

She does a lot of logo design, graphic design that kind of thing. And so we know our experience is not all-encompassing and actually we would love to eventually have someone on the show who does something like writing or photography or music so we can kind of hear how that might be a bit of a different experience. But this is ours and we hope you get [00:01:00] something from it.


Elizabeth: Yeah, great. Well, I’m just going to jump in and just ask a quick question. So something that I’ve always thought about, even as a kid, was being in the creative field always being a filmmaker, photographer. You know something like that. So this is something that I’ve always dreamt of is that something you’ve always dreamt of?


Jessica: It is, and it’s funny because when I was younger, I actually wanted to be an actor which I think anyone who knows me if they knew that would be really surprised. I’m not one to emote much which I think is something required of actors and I feel like I would probably shrivel up on a stage. But yeah, that’s I don’t know.

I just love storytelling and I loved reading and I thought that that would be cool. And then. When I grew up so to speak I thought I’d be a writer, but I guess we can delve into that as we chat here, you know exposing yourself as a creative putting your work out there for criticism is a very vulnerable thing.

And so. Yes, [00:02:00] it is. It has been a dream to make a living as a creative. But I never envisioned that it would be in the field that we’re in.


Elizabeth: Well something about what you just said about being an actor. You said you know actors normally emote and what not. And I don’t know if I completely agree with that.

I always feel like actors are always such strange mysterious creatures who you don’t ever really know or you know, you hear a lot of the times like oh, yeah, you know I met so-and-so. Or I waited on him there and he was just so quiet and awkward or you know strange and then you know, when they’re in front of a camera or a live audience.

It’s like they come alive. So maybe you just haven’t quite like explored that part, maybe? But I guess you have done some live shows, right? I mean you’ve done acting classes and stuff like that right?


Jessica: We have to tell the people all my dirty secrets now. I mean sure if we want to go real deep when I [00:03:00] was a child. You know I was drag to synagogue on the weekends by my parents and I did like Jewish plays and you know, and when I was in high school I took theater partly because I really loved plays. Yeah and partly because that’s a great class to take.


Elizabeth: and who would be a tougher crowd than Stephen and Judy Eller, right?


Jessica: Oh, yeah. No, they’re very supportive. But I guess- I guess what I was trying to say there was, I don’t know if I’m the right fit, but you have a good point.  you know, we’re based out of LA. So we have a lot of friends who are actors and some of them really are like just super outgoing people and others you would never guess that that’s what they do, but they do kind of come alive in that environment.

I guess either way I’ve learned over time that I prefer the opportunity to explore and share my creativity from sort of a behind-the-scenes place. So whether it’s here’s your web design, what do you think of it or like here’s something I wrote [00:04:00] that I ask what you go from the have the guts to put my name on.


Elizabeth: I know, I’m the same way. I’m such a private person and I’ve always been like a behind the cameras person like you can growing up. I was never like I want to be an actor. I was like, I want to be a filmmaker. I want to be behind the camera. I want other people to do the acting and the you know, show their vulnerability I want to be on the other side, even though I still think that there’s vulnerability on being behind the camera.

I just think it’s different and I guess maybe that’s just what I’ve always been more comfortable with or like a photographer. Like I’ve always enjoyed taking pictures and being again behind the camera, you know, and so it’s kind of funny that for our jobs, you know, we’re basically behind a computer per se, you know, so we’re able to still be creative and everyday I get to wake up and I get to be creative and I get to you know explore that part of [00:05:00] myself where.

It makes me the happiest.


Jessica: No, we are behind the computer to the point where if we have to do like a Skype call with a client. I’m like, oh man, it’s nice. This is right now, but we’re just very used to chatting emailing phone calls at the most. You know, that’s usually how we kind of build those relationships. So yeah it kind of is almost counterproductive if you’re thinking about trying to become more vulnerable because it the specific type of work that we do allows you to really hide yourself even more than a filmmaker, writer or personality.


Elizabeth: That’s true. But I mean I still find like maybe just. Even when I do my own like when I do the designing and whatnot or if it’s a logo or if it’s a color scheme or if it’s a layout or whatever it may be even if it’s like business cards, you know, I’m always so concerned when I hit send because I’m like, okay, you know, like it’s like it’s just it [00:06:00] allows you to be very vulnerable because you know doing something that you created no matter what kind of.

Capacity at may be I think that there is still that level of vulnerability of like somebody coming back and being like I hate it, or its it looks it looks childish, or this is unprofessional or you know, and I take it. Maybe I’m just a sensitive person. I’m not quite sure. Maybe it’s that Pisces in me, but I get very like.

Kind of hurt by it, I guess in some ways, but maybe I’m just I haven’t been in the business long enough, you know, maybe I haven’t quite learned how to let things slide, but I definitely take all my work still very personal, and I think that there’s vulnerability in that still even know we are behind a computer or I don’t ever really talk to the client face-to-face or on the phone.

You know what I mean? Like God forbid if I had to get on the phone call with a client, you know?


Jessica: Yeah, and that’s interesting. I was actually going to ask you a question about [00:07:00]  how it feels because for me a lot more of what I do is either follow the clients design ideas, like bring them to life or you know work with your design instruction and it’s more of the development work. And while I think there is an art and a creativity to development and you know, we can get more into that as well. Yours is more objective, right or I’m sorry subjective. Whereas developments of our objective. It’s like it works. It doesn’t work. But design is so subjective and clients can be kind of like they have a vision in their minds but they’re not quite able to articulate it in the same language that you understand right so that can be a challenge and so.

Yeah, I was just going to ask you kind of about about what that’s like, you know, sharing your vision or even bringing a vision to the table and not quite being the right fit.


Elizabeth: Well, I mean just touching base on like clients and I think a lot of people come to the table with ideas in their head [00:08:00] or things that they think that they want to see but they don’t quite maybe know how to articulate it or communicate it well. And sometimes you know, it’s just basic chemistry. I mean honestly like some people you just kind of like click with and you like understand everything that they’re saying like how I you know, I got it. Like I know what you want. I can I can make that for you and some people it’s just a little more difficult.

Right and I’ve always found that client relationships that have kind of gone-uh uh a little more not towards I don’t know. I guess array. God I’m not sure how to say I don’t know how to word that. Um, I feel like not as smoothly as one might hope yeah. No, I’m not really an artist with the words. But you know, I always feel like it’s kind of just almost like chemistry is just off with people sure but um, Jeez,


Jessica: No and I totally and I’ll pick up there because I totally know what you’re saying with that and I think you’re just basically saying maybe you understand [00:09:00] their Vision, but the way that you choose to articulate it visually as not quite. What they were imagining somehow or you know, who knows that the case may be and I would I was going to say is it’s so interesting because obviously so many people like every business needs a website and then a lot of people want a personal website whether it’s for a blog or their own thing that they’re starting out there on side hustles, if you will, you know, things like that you do encounter such a wide variety of people and sum despite everybody having access to Technologies, not everybody’s as.

Tech savvy as you would expect and so or familiar with like the Norms of what you do like be it right what a logo really should actually entail like in terms of color or prospectively like what the purpose of a logo is or what the purpose of their website isn’t so and maybe that’s where I become less of the creative and more of the like strategist per se but. um

Yeah, some clients just quite they have more of a an [00:10:00] ethereal Vision. It might be the word where it’s not as like practical or the norm. Does that make sense?


Elizabeth: I think people definitely come to you with no idea about what goes into things or what. What a professional does in their field. Sometimes I guess I mean not always but you know, some people are like hey, can you can you do this and you’re just like, um, I can do that, but I’m not quite sure like that would be the best thing to do and I think a lot of times people forget that like, especially as a freelancer that you are the professional right like you are the authority in some ways.


Jessica: Yes. Well, yes, so that is one thing is and that actually brings us back to the original topic of being a creative is it is still a creative professional and people are still seeking out your services as a professional and sometimes I think that gets lost because it’s a creative venture and I do think that sometimes with more simple development type fixes because the other person knows that they don’t [00:11:00] know how to do it. There’s not as much friction and there’s not as much pushback and I think. When it’s something people like kind of think that they can do themselves, but not a hundred percent, but they have the idea in mind whether it be a sketch on paper, which I’ve actually received or some sort of a vague other mock-up for, you know type thing. They think that they can also do what you do.


Elizabeth: Right? Well, they don’t really think that you’re kind of the Authority or that you what you do is really like, how do I like is. Is difficult per se right like so if you go to a doctor and the doctors like oh your left tibula has a little cracker a little friend, you know, whatever.

It may be in it enter the person’s just they just listen to the doctor completely. They don’t take any other advice. They don’t go anywhere else and they just they just. Okay. Yes. I have the crack.  I know I went. Yeah, I just I just went to the doctor and what they [00:12:00] said is right and I’m not going to question them. I’m not going to get any outside, you know Council or anything and people just take it as authoritative. Right? Like there’s certain respective careers where people or positions that people take where people just listen right, but I don’t know even if it’s like in the creative field and I’ve also had this experience being like a photographer and taking photos of people and either having somebody on set or somebody that is paying me to take their pictures. Suggesting things or are wanting me to do things a different way or like thinking that they might have the, you know and you’re just kind of like and I find that often in creative fields a lot of the times creatively that people can tell you what to do or like they are now the authority on your professional Job.

Jessica: Right, and now you become less of a hired professional as more of like an almost like a tool right-

Elizabeth: Like a vessel for something.


Jessica: Like you should create what they have in their mind [00:13:00] or something and there’s no the robot that inside of our cameras.


Elizabeth: Yeah, exactly. Basically, I mean in what 2020 you never know, you know, there’s no job security with these robots.


Jessica: Well, the reality is right that like as we’re talking about being creative professionals. I guess those two like juxtaposing those two words is kind of interesting and you know some things we can talk about this while are just creatives and How their work is valued but also how their work is respected and so obviously doing a photography shoot or logo is not as important as going to a doctor when you have a health issue. It’s just not but that being said if they’re still paying you for your experience because it’s not just for your skill set of working a camera or you know, writing HTML and CSS. It’s also for your experience like as we’ve done this over the years, we’ve gained experience and knowledge that are valuable. And so I think that comes into play in terms of people. Just thinking well, I have a vision for this and you’re like, okay, that’s great. [00:14:00] And I want to make your vision come to life. But my you know, you think of like a clothing designer, right? Like people might that’s a creative profession and people might go and buy clothing or like it or not like it but. It’s not often that people go and say, oh, I’d really actually rather this word. We’re here it could you put the sleeve lower and you know, like weird weird things that you might see in the web design world. If you wanted to kind of build a real world analogy for that. Could the neckline be 2 inches smaller and could this loose it an inch lower and you’re like, that’s not okay,


Elizabeth:  but here let me ask you something. So do you think people like let’s just say like Annie Leibovitz like the famous photographer. Do you think when she goes on a set? Do you think that her client or her clients manager? Do you think that they’re telling her what to do? Like, do you think that there’s like a certain level that creatives get to where people just respect them on a [00:15:00] level where they don’t even question them.

Like sure do you think that or somewhere along the line? They always question and always kind of hassle creatives.


Jessica: So let me like real- Let me relate a little to what you’re saying in a way that speaks more to my life experience, you know I like tattoos. I have a few of them and I you know, I’ve had friends who are really into tattoo culture and within that you can go to just any tattoo shop and say oh I want. I don’t know this. I want a rose tattoo it on my forearm and be like, okay great or you can pick a tattoo out of a book or you can share like a vision and a lot of tattoo artists will even do sketches out of time, but but. You know, that’s kind of like going to a photographer. Right? But some people go to specific artists and just say I want some of your work because I like what your work your style is and I think that’s with Annie Leibovitz is they’re not [00:16:00] going and saying I want a photographer. I need my photo taken. She has a specific style. And so people are saying I want what it is that you do. So if they were to impose their ideas on her that would take away from the Annie Leibovitz experience the same way that. Telling you know are very reputable name brand tattoo artist who you’re getting their work almost like a piece of art that you you know will live with what to do.

It would just kind of take away from the whole point of going to them in the first place. So I think until you become that kind of a brand where people look at it as that, you are just a tool, a robot who knows how to work a camera.


Elizabeth:  What do you think justify somebody to be

the authority or the professional the one that I don’t tell anything to do the one that I come to because you are who you are and I know you’re the best of the best you just is it just [00:17:00] years of experience do you think it’s like what do you you know because even newer age artist that haven’t even been around for that long.

I mean people are like, you know, listen to them or even more like a new rapper or new artists like all they’re just like the best rapper alive and you’re like they’ve been around for five. Six years, you know, yeah-


Jessica: Are you saying that like with that artist maybe their record company if they have one is not trying to shape.

They’re sound they get a little more creative freedom or are you just saying-


Elizabeth: I’m just saying do you think that it’s like a year like, oh she’s been taking photos for 25 years. She’s experienced. Like do you think it’s a year thing? Like, what do you think justify somebody as the top in their field or their professional?

I mean, there’s been there’s rappers or that have been around for a year and people are already saying, you know, they’re the highest paid rappers and people are calling them the best [00:18:00] rapper and you’re like but they’ve only been around for a year. I mean like somebody like Jay-Z who has a discography that’s like years and years and years and album after album after album after album-


Jessica: I’ll follow up with that is you’re speaking from like you’re speaking from them being established and maybe they’d only been established for a year. But as you know, and we’ve discussed that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’ve only been doing this for a year.

It’s very likely they’ve been doing this for a really long time. They’ve just been in the public eye for a year. So I feel like at that point we’re getting to more of like a marketing or public perception or how to something catch on right and why? And I think we know that people want what other people have or what other people like it’s the power of suggestion and social influence.

So at that point, I think some of it does come down to Talent, you know, I [00:19:00] think Talent really Rises but sometimes it’s it’s marketing or what other people are into or whatever the trend is. Right? Like Kanye West. Was a great rapper, but he’s come out with some shirts that are ridiculous and at this point because he has a name and he is established and he is you know, someone his own authority or whatever you want to call it.

He has the creative freedom to make ridiculous ugly t-shirts that people will pay a lot of money for


Elizabeth: and people just continue to think he’s a genius, you know, it’s.


Jessica: Yeah, so I think some of it just has to do I mean again, I think your example of like some random rapper who you who may have been on the scene like known for a year has obviously been doing this for way longer, you know, that would be kind of like if our web design company really took off, you know in 10 years and people have only been around for a year.

It’s like no, you know, maybe they’ve been around for 15 years you just so so I think that’s [00:20:00] a misconception and I think it really is just. Social influence and marketing and you know all the different psychological things in addition to of course actual talent, which is either, you know, partially just something people are gifted with or something people have developed through.

Hard work. So-


Elizabeth: I was just seeing if you had any insight, you know, so I could work on my network and-


Jessica: Your brand


Elizabeth: Yeah, so I could be like hey this and that and this and then they’re just like okay. Yeah, you’re a genius and I’m like hmm.


Jessica: I mean really the reason people put things like portfolios or.

You know logos of people they’ve worked with on their website is to kind of be able to establish two right off the bat say I’m the authority here and so until you’ve worked with a name that they are familiar with and respect and aspire to be like. You know, I don’t know if you’ll have that sort of clout.


Elizabeth: Yeah. No, I think that’s I mean that’s great advice and I feel the same way, you know, sometimes [00:21:00] when I look at people’s portfolios or whatnot if I look at him and I’m like, wow, they’ve worked with Nike Adidas Under Armour. Wow, they must be you know legit. So yeah, I definitely see the benefit in working with.

Big-name clients and I think big-name clients normally only hire people that have had a lot of experience and I am now seeing the value and experience more than ever. I mean, honestly I even though our company is still fairly new and and what not. I mean where I am today as a designer and as a business owner from where I even was 6 months ago is.

You know Monumental it’s just it’s insane so I can only imagine somebody that has 20 30 plus years experience branding, you know, so-


Jessica: Sure-


Elizabeth: Yeah, I’m a big believer in experience.


Jessica: I think but you can also catch like, you know, you could catch a big fish. Let’s say and help. A brand that’s got a great business model and a great product really establish themselves.

And then other people who aspire to be like that brand or that [00:22:00] company or that person will seek you out because you helped you or part of making them per se right. So say you did a logo for an online fashion boutique and that Boutique really took off and people loved it. And I feel like that’s a pretty common popular.

Thing that a lot of people are trying to do you might end up, you know, encountering a lot of new clients who want to work with you specifically because of because they aspire to be like that. So I’m trying to think of another analogy Yeah. No, I basically. I think that’s a big part of it. So maybe Annie Leibovitz to take pictures of beautiful models.

And so everyone wants to be wants to think that they are also beautiful models. And so they want to go to her because I think she’s going to write amazing It also says something about them too. Right? I mean and that’s part of the whole experience is that if you’re being if your photograph is being taken by her.


Elizabeth: I mean that says something about you she doesn’t just take [00:23:00] a picture off of you know of any geek off the street, you know what I mean?

She’s like she’s shooting A-list actor. She’s shooting. Clooney’s Charlize Theron Julia Roberts of the world and so if you are in that category, I mean, I guess that says something about you right? I mean you’re you’ve made it your now getting your photo taken and you’re in Vogue and you’re in the September issue and I mean, so it’s a whole the whole thing.

I mean, it’s just so much that goes into it.


Jessica: So then at that point it’s not even really about. I mean, of course it’s about what the photoshoot looks like. And of course she is a career well known and known to be a creative genius and very talented. So there’s that but even still I think what you’re saying is she’s in the position of power in that relationship and so she doesn’t have to work with you.

And so whereas I think we’re more in a position of. We would like to work with clients. Would you like to work for that someone like Annie [00:24:00] Leibovitz is like I’ll get you if I get to you and if I don’t want to I won’t so that’s the the power Dynamic. I think it’s kind of what you’re looking at, right?


Elizabeth: Yeah, so but I mean just like anybody I mean she started off with probably, you know, just in any position as a new a newbie, you know, she was trying to get that picture of a person or trying to be the photographer of Vogue or trying to do this or trying to do that. So, you know, even though she’s an established

photographer now. I mean that wasn’t always the case right and did you know this podcast was going to be about annie leibovitz?


Jessica: No, but what I was going to say is I feeling now we need to interview someone who is established. So if you’re out there you’d obviously like to come on what it’s like and share with our listeners what it’s like to be you and how you got there because.

I guess yeah, I guess we’re not quite as established. And so what we are just kind of [00:25:00] sit anywhere established, but you know, we’re not at the Annie Leibovitz of the design world yet. So what we’re kind of saying is this is what it’s like to be a creative professional and some of it is. How do I twist or how do I set up a power Dynamic with clients where they respect me as the authority figure that’s a challenge.

I’m sure a lot of No Name forget about creatives face. And so someone might be a photographer that’s equally as talented as any liquids and their work is just as good but you know because they don’t have that name, so that’s an interesting conundrum right as a creative unless you’re also. Name and unknown you don’t come and the same price point and you don’t demand the same respect and you don’t have the same position of power in your Dynamic with your clients.

So that’s a little bit about what it’s like to be a creative professional.


Elizabeth: Yeah, absolutely. We’re kind of still in that stage where we’re kind of paying our dues and really finding our own stride on how to be [00:26:00] a creative professional and in a world where you know, that’s it’s challenge


Jessica: one thing that you know about this kind of just I mean you touched on it with logos, but I know you also do photography and film, you know, and you write a little bit and so what is it like for you to just not working with clients know it’s let’s move off of that.

What is it like for you to just kind of put together a piece of creative work and then maybe try to release it for public consumption in some way. What does that feel like?


Elizabeth: Well, like we’ve been talking about I mean vulnerability right? I mean, I always feel like whether it’s a photographer, you know, excuse me, a photograph or a logo or branding or whatnot. I always feel like it’s sharing a little bit about me and I’m a pretty private person in a lot of ways. So it’s kind of touching base back on that actor thing like where you feel like you don’t know and you’re not this Persona right so you can’t be an actor.

[00:27:00] Where it’s like that’s not true. And sometimes you just feel like oh well, like if I write this story about this, people, I’m dark or weird or if I take photos of this or people going to think this or something like, you know, so it’s I think in I don’t know if you ever get over that as a creative.

Yeah, but there comes this part where you have to share yourself with the world, right? You have to if you want to be a creative making a living as a professional you have to be able to be vulnerable to share your work with people because if people don’t know you exist only are you supposed to make a living


Jessica: If you can’t open up in an honest fashion.

You’re not really going to connect with people and I think that’s something else is, you know, as a consumer of creative work as well. You know, I love reading I love. I really love theater what I love the most is things that are you know, character-driven stories that I’m invested in the [00:28:00] characters and I relate to them and I feel like a lot of stories come from either real experiences or imagined take some real experiences and I could be very off base with this assumption.

But I guess you know a note creatives would be there are a lot of people and that’s kind of the point of this podcast as well the whole-the whole series not just this one is a lot of people can relate to your experience in some form or fashion. Even if it’s not directly and so by really just making yourself vulnerable and opening that up is the best in an honest fashion is that I think the best way to really capture people and turn them into fans and advocates and clients and whatever else-


Elizabeth:  I couldn’t agree more I think. You know, I guess from my own experience and from your experience. I guess we could just say, you know, don’t be afraid to share yourself. Don’t be afraid to be vulnerable who cares what people think send your message be genuine and people will connect to you. I think I couldn’t [00:29:00] give you any better advice as a creative myself because-


Jessica:  I would you say it was so I would just say as a creative professional.

You do have to strike a balance, especially when you’re not in the position of power and that in that Dynamic with your client or consumer or whatever. It is to maybe let’s say sell your work for less than you’d like to and it’s unfortunate and it’s frustrating. I’m not sure how I feel about people sharing their work for free.

Although I guess that’s kind of what we’re doing here. And so maybe there are cases where that makes sense right to to establish an audience as well. So sometimes Maybe. Although always the goal is going to be to monetize something and make it a career in the beginning if you just do it for the love of doing it.

Ideally that might come and again I could be completely wrong and I would love to hear someone else’s perspective on that. But that’s just something I’ve learned is, you know, you might even know that your work is worth [00:30:00] x amount of dollars. Let’s say in that trade right but until you are, you know, establish and can safely command that it I guess.

It’s sometimes a worthwhile to compromise and yeah.


Elizabeth:  Well, I mean, I understand I understand to compromise but I don’t think that people sure creatives have to do things for free and I don’t think I think I think that that’s the problem with the creative industry is that so many people have to do things for free because they aren’t established or they aren’t you know, quote unquote The Authority the and that’s what makes everybody in the creative world having to do things for less or for free because if you’re not.

Going to take if you’re going to charge these people $500 to take their picture. There’s another person that will be like just do it for free for the experience. And so I think that there does have to be something where creative should value themselves and should say, you know, what although I don’t have a ton of experience.

I’m still using my time and my energy and I still [00:31:00] do have some expertise. I’m still going to charge you and I think that that’s something. That creatives need to do is that they need to charge people.


Jessica: It’s just a trade and so you’re trading my time or my experience or my work is worth X and in Creative work, especially there’s such a wide range of what things could be valued at and a lot of it does come down to your name and who you are and what else you’ve done and so it’s not quite like a normal market value or the well car insurance is $150 a month.

And that’s just what it is. You know, it’s not as. Cut and dry and so and again it comes back to a lot of subjectivity. I guess all I meant was you know, sometimes I don’t know, I guess what I meant that sometimes you might not get what you feel is fair value in the early stages and that’s you know, maybe just a good opportunity to get maybe, you know deep down your talent and as you [00:32:00] grow and establish things you will exceed.

Your former expectations, I guess or right


Elizabeth: I get what you mean. I mean you use your saying basically if there’s opportunity to do something to make you better or to gain experience.


Jessica: Yeah sometimes


Elizabeth: You know. You can do it. You can do it for free or you can do it for less or whatnot because you’re not quite there yet and I completely understand that.

I just think that people should be compensated for their time and their energy and their about their level of expertise whether it’s six months or a year, but you know, I mean, I guess it’s just per person per-


Jessica: I guess I was going to speaking to you don’t have any or having done some people who let’s say.

Our actors and sometimes they do land that National commercial where they make, you know, x amount of dollars and then other times they’re doing student films and so it still goes on there real it’s still something that they can say, this is something I’ve done they can show off their skill set.

They get a [00:33:00] little better maybe than a connection. So I guess I meant and I did not articulated is that there’s always an opportunity to gain something from an experience and maybe it’s not the compensation that you’d like and the kind of competition that will pay your rent. But I guess take each opportunity as an individual, you know, kind of look at it as it is and just say is this something that could contribute something besides just.

You know monetary income to my life and if so, is it worth it to me, but the other thing I just wanted to say is just kind of like a quick thing to wrap it up, you know creatives. I think at every level no matter how established you are do still have that vulnerability and I had a friend. I have a friend who works in the film industry.

And I remember this anecdote about major film of the huge budget big stars that came out and just totally tanked and the the writer and director went into hiding for a few weeks after that. And you know, I felt so [00:34:00] bad for that person despite the fact that they’re an established and well-paid individual just because you know, it’s it’s so tough to just put yourself out there and then not be received in the way that you anticipated.

And yeah, so it happens to all of us at every level in every stage and. We got through it.


Elizabeth: I think so. I think so. I think on every level there’s always going to be vulnerability and sometimes even more at stake When You’re established. Yeah, so, you know, I think I think what we learned today is that you know, we should be vulnerable.

We should share ourselves and sometimes if the opportunity is really awesome, but it’s not a lot of money or it’s even free work and you feel like you should do it. You know, we’re not going to advise on any of that or anything, but if anybody has a story out there to about what it’s like to be a professional or creative or any story it may be.

so reach out to us [00:35:00] and share your story with us. And I guess until next time good night.


Jessica: Thanks for listening and we’ll be back next week with another one. You can check in on our website to see what the topic is going to be there.

And we are as Elizabeth mentioned actively looking for new guests for the show. The first few episodes will probably just be the two of us chat and but we’re really excited about this opportunity. You know, this is kind of a light-hearted topic but Explore More General topics about humanity and what life is like for people, you know in their particular situation and just to really relate and give people a platform to share their stories.


Elizabeth: So. Alright until next time. We look forward to

hearing from you.


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